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Post by Halother on Mar 23, 2017 17:12:45 GMT
A question I have not thought anything about but just glanced at the surface of wondering, maybe even 4 or more years ago but never douve in, and still dont dare to attempt to think about it, but wondering if anyone has any thoughts:
What is the percentages of divvying, in regards to the 12 pitchful tones, in relation to the reason for their relations and 12ness, in relation to "the material struck" (be it string or vibed horn) to the nature of air, to gravity (I suppose one perhaps might include all the forces?), to the human ear system, to the human mind system?
(I guess to further attempt to pry and provoke, to add a little more substance: different planets with different atmospheres? Different potential types of fundamental building blocks, making fundamentally different types of atoms/forces? How much of these disparate and related real concepts play how much of the role in the fact of the 12 Earthly pitches? How many different types of ear/mind systems are possible, to create how many different types of different harmonious pitch systems? How would our harmonious music sound on planets with different types of atmosphere, and different rate of gravity (other things involved? spin? temperature?)
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Post by ? on Mar 24, 2017 19:32:17 GMT
(must the divvying be equal towards every single component involved? (fine tuning?) such that if the smallest component was the smallest bit changed the 12 tones would not be/work the same? (I doubt it, as there can be different quantities of air, different densities, possibly slightly different rate of gravity (if the earths mass was smaller or larger) that likely would not have an effect on the 12 tones... maybe)
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Post by ssbiannual on Mar 25, 2017 0:50:27 GMT
Check this out en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)Now in some sense, the 12 note western octave can be seen as arbitrarily defined. In fact, we can have a many notes within an octave as we please, but in the end, some configurations end up sounding much better. There are eastern tunings with tones in between the semi tones that we use! In my metaphysical opinion, symmetry is what gives the music form/beauty and asymmetry is what gives it motion. The most beautiful tone in the universe will eventually become stale without some contrast. With very few fundamentals, you can make patterns of infinite complexity. Music simply manipulates the space in between audio "bits" to preduce patterns when viewed from afar. Both vision and hearing utilize waves that exist within the universe. But, hearing is interesting because it operates at a speed in which we can actively participate with the space between peaks and valleys. You look at a painting and you are bombarded with varying rates of frequency input simultaneously. You listen to a song, and each moment builds upon the last. It is an art form that manipulates time in such a way that to perceive it would require a different sensory organ than the eye. However, sound is just the sensory representation of displaced particles as a waveform, not the wave itself. It is different from vision in that light communicates all of it's varying frequencies instantaneously. Following this logic, we can begin to think about string theory, where the waves exist on another level "above" light, and manifest as the world that surrounds us. This is the whole "matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration" thing. |
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Post by ? on Mar 25, 2017 1:08:55 GMT
Check this out en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)Now in some sense, the 12 note western octave can be seen as arbitrarily defined. In fact, we can have a many notes within an octave as we please, but in the end, some configurations end up sounding much better. There are eastern tunings with tones in between the semi tones that we use! In my metaphysical opinion, symmetry is what gives the music form/beauty and asymmetry is what gives it motion. The most beautiful tone in the universe will eventually become stale without some contrast. With very few fundamentals, you can make patterns of infinite complexity. Music simply manipulates the space in between audio "bits" to preduce patterns when viewed from afar. Both vision and hearing utilize waves that exist within the universe. But, hearing is interesting because it operates at a speed in which we can actively participate with the space between peaks and valleys. You look at a painting and you are bombarded with varying rates of frequency input simultaneously. You listen to a song, and each moment builds upon the last. It is an art form that manipulates time in such a way that to perceive it would require a different sensory organ than the eye. However, sound is just the sensory representation of displaced particles as a waveform, not the wave itself. It is different from vision in that light communicates all of it's varying frequencies instantaneously. Following this logic, we can begin to think about string theory, where the waves exist on another level "above" light, and manifest as the world that surrounds us. This is the whole "matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration" thing. Cool, thanks so much for the helpful info. Is it a silly question to ask, is it possible to divide a 'string' into lets say, 25 different pitches, that have 'harmonious harmonies', in the same way the 12 tone equal temperament, has harmonious harmonies? Like dont you think there is a good, real, reason the western tone system is what it is? How many others are possible? You can make the string have 25 pitches, (that repeat in octaves?) and create 'harmonious' music that way? You can make a system where 'everything is out of tune', but the only reason it is/sounds out of tune, is only because we are not used to it, its not actually out of tune, and there are actually harmonious relations? your speaking of the visualizing music in waves and requiring time made me think to leave you with this, hope you enjoy (and yeah, it quite obviously requires time, and space, just as film, and life, for it is 'progression and building/construction of 'meaningful' informational sequence', a film, or a song, or life... wouldnt be possible, if it was "all in an instance at once", even the painting, and photo, quite obviously requires the time and space and sequence to be possible, to capture the infinitesimal frame): |
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Post by ssbiannual on Mar 25, 2017 1:37:10 GMT
Yes, in fact, every note we perceive is its own harmonious harmony!
And then the pattern scales up at the octave!
In music, the space between individual notes are called intervals. You can have a minor second, a third, a perfect fifth, whatever, the point is that we have different names for different lengths of "space between notes played simultaneously"
In essence, because the overtone series is true, playing two or more notes attenuates certain frequencies and accentuates others!
This is both a symptom and an intrinsic property to octaves. An octave is perceived as the same note, but scaled up, similar to a square in mathematics. And there will be "harmonious harmonies" in the space between these two identical, yet magnitudally different notes! This is why we have major, minor, augmented, and diminished chords.
Of course we can split the octave into any number of different ways, in this case, we have four descriptors of "qualities" of "harmonious harmonies."
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Post by ? on Mar 25, 2017 2:08:12 GMT
Yes, in fact, every note we perceive is its own harmonious harmony! And then the pattern scales up at the octave! In music, the space between individual notes are called intervals. You can have a minor second, a third, a perfect fifth, whatever, the point is that we have different names for different lengths of "space between notes played simultaneously" In essence, because the overtone series is true, playing two or more notes attenuates certain frequencies and accentuates others! This is both a symptom and an intrinsic property to octaves. An octave is perceived as the same note, but scaled up, similar to a square in mathematics. And there will be "harmonious harmonies" in the space between these two identical, yet magnitudally different notes! This is why we have major, minor, augmented, and diminished chords. Of course we can split the octave into any number of different ways, in this case, we have four descriptors of "qualities" of "harmonious harmonies." When guitars are tuned differently from standard, do they escape the western 12 tone paradigm? (or at least particular tunings?) |
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Post by ssbiannual on Mar 25, 2017 2:16:14 GMT
To my knowledge, no.
When you tune to drop d or open g, you are still within the 12 semi tones framework.
You see, each fret is placed in such a way that the next one hops up a 12th of the octavr. To mess with the other tones, you would have to narrow the frets or lengthen the strings themselves.
There are instruments that are built for other tuning systems, I suggest you do some research!
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Post by ? on Mar 25, 2017 3:54:02 GMT
To my knowledge, no. When you tune to drop d or open g, you are still within the 12 semi tones framework. You see, each fret is placed in such a way that the next one hops up a 12th of the octavr. To mess with the other tones, you would have to narrow the frets or lengthen the strings themselves. There are instruments that are built for other tuning systems, I suggest you do some research! Yea, I know of micro tonal, and movable fret micro fret tone guitars. One more question, at least for now. How many possible notes, pitches/frequencies/notes/tones can the "average" human voice hit (not counting repeated, as in, higher or lower octaves)? |
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Post by ssbiannual on Mar 25, 2017 4:06:02 GMT
Every single one!
Do a siren with your voice. Woooo, up and down the scale, continuously. You'll hit every possible note before you reach the next octave.
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Post by ? on Mar 25, 2017 9:48:20 GMT
Every single one! Do a siren with your voice. Woooo, up and down the scale, continuously. You'll hit every possible note before you reach the next octave. Ok, interesting. I just woke up slightly nervous that I should have not said 'average' human, but just theoretically possible of human, to get the best answer. but now given your answer I must ask, which is what I meant to imply, how many possible can be 'sustained'? Surely your answer is not, between pitch low and high, an infinite number of unique pitches? Part of my question may be the nearly unbearably silly, why are there octaves? I understand it has to do with the division of, for instance string. A string is a finite length, so you break it into sections and get the wave function for those sections, but once you reach the middle point, then it is just a mirror of the first half. But to gain, maybe, more characteristics and details, the string is not broken into half, but more, like some (I know its not this, at least I dont think) golden ratio function, or yea, 3rd, 4th, 5th etc. But you are suggesting, for example, one can take 'soundable things, for instance a string', and instead of crinch it in the ratios that produce the 'tempered 12 tones', 'crinch' it 'just on a slightly lower ratio' for example, so that the pitches would be (out of tune) not what we are used to (as the htz, of A, B, C, minor, major etc.) and for instance, you can ratioize the string in such a way, to create 13 tones, 22 tones? Would you be implying that 'everything is harmonious'? Part of what I was getting at is, how much of it has to do with the human ear, that those wave forms, decohere, dissonance, and cohere, harmony, where as if you ratioed it into those 13 or 22 tones, the waves may cohere and harmonize in the air, but not our ear? Is that naturally not in our ear? Or learned, if we all used the 13 or 22 tones, and never new the well tempered, would our ears detect those as harmony, your answer is yes see eastern music? |
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Post by ? on Mar 25, 2017 12:10:22 GMT
Every single one! Do a siren with your voice. Woooo, up and down the scale, continuously. You'll hit every possible note before you reach the next octave. Also, is it just me, or does it seem like, at least many birds I hears, call, appears to approach '12' tone tonality?(I have spent some time mimicking bird calls and whistling with the birds) |
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Post by ? on Mar 26, 2017 22:46:05 GMT
Yes, in fact, every note we perceive is its own harmonious harmony! When I said can a string be divided in 25 (ways, instead of 12) and have harmonious harmony, I meant with each other, not each single note/pitch being a harmony itself, but as there are different notes in keys and octaves which harmonize. |
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Post by ssbiannual on Mar 27, 2017 3:04:03 GMT
Yes, in fact, every note we perceive is its own harmonious harmony! When I said can a string be divided in 25 (ways, instead of 12) and have harmonious harmony, I meant with each other, not each single note/pitch being a harmony itself, but as there are different notes in keys and octaves which harmonize. Yes, that is why I mentioned minor, major, augmented, and diminished chords. 25 notes, sure. But there is no established music theory for 25 note octaves, to my knowledge. You will have to figure that out for yourself. |
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