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Post by Therin on Aug 19, 2016 18:50:28 GMT
Predatory behavior is humanity's most evolved trait. I actually IS...it has become SOOO refined, so well thought out, so perfected and utilized among predatory types. There are, of course numerous reasons why people do this so much. It's not so much for survival anymore, but I think it's stealing control and stealing energy. Take a child predator, for example. Back when I was a child, a man tried to lure me into his vehicle with the idea that he had a daughter my age and would I come play with her and keep her company. The tactics are many, and through trial and error of others who have succeeded or failed, this mechanism, this monster becomes more and more dangerous to our children. Now, take the sociopath, who learns so much via mimicry of others to project charm and emotion in order to swindle others. The list goes on and on. Whatever the motivator, if strong enough, will evolve a predators nature (human or animal). Since, in nature, the majority of predators are already quite successful, I think they've plateaued. With humans, well, not so much. Embrace it? I guess you'd have to expand upon that remark in order for me to comment on it with full understanding. What do I mean by embrace? I suppose I mean that mortality is inherently predatorial.
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Post by River on Aug 19, 2016 19:03:12 GMT
Very deep my dear. And that...is my comment.
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Post by onion on Aug 19, 2016 22:07:02 GMT
Meant for here:
Aug 19, 2016 13:57:11 GMT -5 onion said: I disagree. As an example, Buddhism is pretty easily more accepting and analytical of mortality than other schools of though, if not all others, but revolves around anti-predatory practices and outlook. Aug 19, 2016 14:10:29 GMT -5 onion said: Its an example, Im not Buddhist either. What I'm implying is that predatory outlooks arent as based on mortality if you can take those who genuinely embrace mortality but shun predation.
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Post by Caylus Ark on Aug 19, 2016 22:57:26 GMT
I actually IS...it has become SOOO refined, so well thought out, so perfected and utilized among predatory types. There are, of course numerous reasons why people do this so much. It's not so much for survival anymore, but I think it's stealing control and stealing energy. Take a child predator, for example. Back when I was a child, a man tried to lure me into his vehicle with the idea that he had a daughter my age and would I come play with her and keep her company. The tactics are many, and through trial and error of others who have succeeded or failed, this mechanism, this monster becomes more and more dangerous to our children. Now, take the sociopath, who learns so much via mimicry of others to project charm and emotion in order to swindle others. The list goes on and on. Whatever the motivator, if strong enough, will evolve a predators nature (human or animal). Since, in nature, the majority of predators are already quite successful, I think they've plateaued. With humans, well, not so much. Embrace it? I guess you'd have to expand upon that remark in order for me to comment on it with full understanding. What do I mean by embrace? I suppose I mean that mortality is inherently predatorial. Maybe...if you fear death.
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Post by onion on Aug 19, 2016 23:00:55 GMT
What do I mean by embrace? I suppose I mean that mortality is inherently predatorial. Maybe...if you fear death. Hence my example. They don't fear it, they accept it and it's almost as in one sense you could say they pursue it. Even many Taoists are like that. Don't forget Budo either!
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Post by Caylus Ark on Aug 19, 2016 23:14:27 GMT
Maybe...if you fear death. Hence my example. They don't fear it, they accept it and it's almost as in one sense you could say they pursue it. Even many Taoists are like that. Don't forget Budo either! Yeah. I don't think it's strictly confined to one religion, even of the eastern suite. The way I see it, religion plays a big role in preparing one for the afterlife. But it's good to confront one's mortality regardless of your religious beliefs. A lot of people wait far too long to do so.
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Post by ben on Aug 20, 2016 2:14:58 GMT
Being ready to die and actually killing yourself. There is a very large gap between those two. Although the time it takes for this knowledge <- not assumption, to manifest itself in form of experience is nothing short than the eternity of a moment. Some of you might know too. Quantum Suicide is quite real. ^__^
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Post by Caylus Ark on Aug 20, 2016 6:37:20 GMT
Being ready to die and actually killing yourself. There is a very large gap between those two. Although the time it takes for this knowledge <- not assumption, to manifest itself in form of experience is nothing short than the eternity of a moment. Some of you might know too. Quantum Suicide is quite real. ^__^ I don't think it's quite the same thing. I mean, I feel that we have lives for a reason. And we are all going to die anyway as it is. There is no need to hurry it along. I think we ought to learn as much as we can while we still can. Also, there is a huge karmic impact from killing oneself. You traumatize those who love you in such an unspeakably horrific way, that they are scarred for life. So even if you don't care about your life, you are leaving a giant mess for somebody else to organize and clean up. I can commiserate completely with people who are suicidal - I have been at those low points myself - but ultimately I think it's true that it is - selfish. That it's cowardice is arguable, but I don't think it's arguable that it's very selfish.
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Post by onion on Aug 20, 2016 10:15:25 GMT
Were you ever in a position where you've attempted and that being called selfish was a productive way to address it? If not, dont go there
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Post by Therin on Aug 20, 2016 11:45:31 GMT
Being ready to die and actually killing yourself. There is a very large gap between those two. Although the time it takes for this knowledge <- not assumption, to manifest itself in form of experience is nothing short than the eternity of a moment. Some of you might know too. Quantum Suicide is quite real. ^__^ I don't think it's quite the same thing. I mean, I feel that we have lives for a reason. And we are all going to die anyway as it is. There is no need to hurry it along. I think we ought to learn as much as we can while we still can. Also, there is a huge karmic impact from killing oneself. You traumatize those who love you in such an unspeakably horrific way, that they are scarred for life. So even if you don't care about your life, you are leaving a giant mess for somebody else to organize and clean up. I can commiserate completely with people who are suicidal - I have been at those low points myself - but ultimately I think it's true that it is - selfish. That it's cowardice is arguable, but I don't think it's arguable that it's very selfish. Who said anyone had to try to kill themselves? Let's put it this way, when one starts down the path to useful knowledge, the path to awareness, one will invariably be confronted with one's mortality. The event will be serious. The event can end in death. This is called 'shedding the human form'. Castaneda wrote about this.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 11:55:36 GMT
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Post by Caylus Ark on Aug 20, 2016 14:28:45 GMT
Were you ever in a position where you've attempted and that being called selfish was a productive way to address it? If not, dont go there It is profoundly selfish. Of course that's not the right way to address somebody else's problem, but when push comes to shove its ultimately the truth. Psychologically speaking of course you wouldn't say that to somebody who made an attempt knowing they did so. But at its foundation this is a selfish act, very much so.
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Post by onion on Aug 20, 2016 15:25:25 GMT
Well I asked if you were ever in that position yourself, not just the feeling but actual attempts where being told you were selfish changed your view and behavior. If not then I dont know what your frame of reference is.
I'll tell you all about my position privately a little but I think Im inclined to go my separate way after that
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Post by onion on Aug 20, 2016 15:29:10 GMT
fucking phone, I meant a little later today obviously
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Post by Caylus Ark on Aug 20, 2016 15:38:44 GMT
Well I asked if you were ever in that position yourself, not just the feeling but actual attempts where being told you were selfish changed your view and behavior. If not then I dont know what your frame of reference is. I'll tell you all about my position privately a little but I think Im inclined to go my separate way after that Coming to that conclusion is why I never followed through with an attempt. And make no mistake, there was a period of time when my consideration of that option was quite serious. I think though that isn't the delicacy with which an actively suicidal person ought to be handled by others. It's something that only becomes relevant within the standards we hold ourselves to.
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Post by onion on Aug 20, 2016 15:57:38 GMT
Fair enough. I'm curious if you'll think the same after I relate what I have to say, as soon as I can get a computer
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Post by ben on Aug 20, 2016 16:45:15 GMT
I agree with onion. Any conclusion to how an apple tastes is absolute assumption if not eaten by oneself. But hey, people have a primal urge to have an opinion. xD So that's what they will do, always, form opinions on things they have no knowledge on. Can't blame them for that, of course they don't have any frame of reference, but to admit that and not form an opinion would drive home the fact that we know almost nothing. And that is a depressing state if you believe yourself to be the pinnacle of life. So we circle back to forming opinions. But I repeat myself. And honestly I have opinions on a lot of subjects I have no experience with. But thanks to some other experiences which gave me real knowledge I do indeed know, that most of my opinions, are mere attempts at descriptions. And when I meet humans who do have real knowledge formed through experience, I am the first to give up my own conclusions and learn from those that know what they know.
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Post by Caylus Ark on Aug 20, 2016 17:24:49 GMT
I agree with onion. Any conclusion to how an apple tastes is absolute assumption if not eaten by oneself. But hey, people have a primal urge to have an opinion. xD So that's what they will do, always, form opinions on things they have no knowledge on. Can't blame them for that, of course they don't have any frame of reference, but to admit that and not form an opinion would drive home the fact that we know almost nothing. And that is a depressing state if you believe yourself to be the pinnacle of life. So we circle back to forming opinions. But I repeat myself. And honestly I have opinions on a lot of subjects I have no experience with. But thanks to some other experiences which gave me real knowledge I do indeed know, that most of my opinions, are mere attempts at descriptions. And when I meet humans who do have real knowledge formed through experience, I am the first to give up my own conclusions and learn from those that know what they know. It's simply a philosophical stance on my part. If you accept philosophical premises at all then you have to surmise there is an objective truth one way or another. I wrestled with the question of suicide and was forced to make philosophical conclusions based on those thoughts. And yes it's a very intense and serious question. But without subjecting individual cases and their emotional environments into the equation, and without the qualifier of some sort of terminal and gravely insufferable physical ailment, I feel suicide is selfish. You are indeed committing a murder, and though you have the right in a sense to decide what to do with yourself, you leave the mess of your body and your passing for the living to deal with. I know it's a touchy thing to talk about, and I might change my mind given a good enough argument, but that's simply the way I feel about it. There's also the question of whether or not to bother making an attempt you do not honestly want to follow through with. That's something I've given ample consideration to as well. I think those who are alive to be questioned about their attempt are not necessarily the same people who were absolutely resolved to make a successful attempt. And yes that's quite sad but its true. If I had never seriously considered attempting suicide myself, I would not have many thoughts about it either way. But I have and I do.
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Post by ben on Aug 20, 2016 17:34:18 GMT
It's good that you are thinking about this Caylus. Well, not nessecarily in a "happy world" way, but good none the less. Like was said in another thread, it's a way to deal with mortality. I even agree with all you said. I didn't want to question your resolves personally, don't take my post as an ad hominem! Every single one of us has the right to his own opinion and no one can force anyone to adapt their own views. Not even those who think or those who indeed know things.
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Post by Caylus Ark on Aug 20, 2016 18:02:41 GMT
It's good that you are thinking about this Caylus. Well, not nessecarily in a "happy world" way, but good none the less. Like was said in another thread, it's a way to deal with mortality. I even agree with all you said. I didn't want to question your resolves personally, don't take my post as an ad hominem! Every single one of us has the right to his own opinion and no one can force anyone to adapt their own views. Not even those who think or those who indeed know things. It is a hard matter to detach from personal feelings regarding. I am quite willing to discuss it if anybody sees things another way - as I mentioned it's merely my philosophical stance on the abstract concept of suicide .... when it is a real person in a real situation of suicidality, the abstracts don't always apply so well.
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