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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2017 23:47:20 GMT
Jos,
"Chaos and memory" is an interesting choice of taglines for your avatar.
Since I am keenly interested in memory and quite at the whim of chaos at times it seems (and a bit of a chaos inducer myself), I researched the connection between these two things. I found an interesting study by a student of neural networks named Shuoyang Cui. He produced a presentation entitled "Chaos in Neural Networks" as part of his study of the functioning of the human brain in order to create artificial intelligence that mimics it - using neural network functionality.
He states that "Chaos is statistically indistinguishable from randomness, and yet it is deterministic and not random at all " and also "Chaotic systems will produce the same results if given the same inputs. It is unpredictable in the sense that you cannot predict in what way the system's behavior will change for any change in the input to that system. A random system will produce different results when given the same inputs."
He also states that: "Chaos is random-appearing, and yet has a large degree of underlying order. "
And most interesting to me:
"For the brain of a human: researchers believe chaotic background behavior is necessary for the brain to engage in continual learning."
Of course I do not know how good of a student he was lol, but this information is interesting. As a student of spirituality, I understand that chaos is necessary for growth and development of one's being as one overcomes the challenges of chaos and learns from them - aka continually bringing order to continually created chaos.
Given all of this, how do you feel that chaos relates to memory in particular? I am curious.
Thanks Jos :-)
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Post by ^ on Apr 2, 2017 1:13:33 GMT
Jos, "Chaos and memory" is an interesting choice of taglines for your avatar. Since I am keenly interested in memory and quite at the whim of chaos at times it seems (and a bit of a chaos inducer myself), I researched the connection between these two things. I found an interesting study by a student of neural networks named Shuoyang Cui. He produced a presentation entitled "Chaos in Neural Networks" as part of his study of the functioning of the human brain in order to create artificial intelligence that mimics it - using neural network functionality. He states that "Chaos is statistically indistinguishable from randomness, and yet it is deterministic and not random at all " and also "Chaotic systems will produce the same results if given the same inputs. It is unpredictable in the sense that you cannot predict in what way the system's behavior will change for any change in the input to that system. A random system will produce different results when given the same inputs." He also states that: "Chaos is random-appearing, and yet has a large degree of underlying order. " And most interesting to me: "For the brain of a human: researchers believe chaotic background behavior is necessary for the brain to engage in continual learning." Of course I do not know how good of a student he was lol, but this information is interesting. As a student of spirituality, I understand that chaos is necessary for growth and development of one's being as one overcomes the challenges of chaos and learns from them - aka continually bringing order to continually created chaos. Given all of this, how do you feel that chaos relates to memory in particular? I am curious. Thanks Jos :-) It appears chaos means, many quanta and many variables. Imagine you had a very wide/large shower head type thing, that had 10,000 holes where water came out of (then there is the variable of how much pressure/force the water is turned on on, running at)(and the variable of general air resistance, and wind), and you had in two hands 2 large cups (or just 2 cannon like devices) full of sand (variables being the force the arms move at, the angles the arms move at, or the force and angle the cannons fire at, and the mass and shape of each piece of sand and its order of packing). How to predict where each individual sand particle will end up, and each individual water particle will end up (starting counting 10 milliseconds before you move the cups forward to dump, or fire the sand blasters). This is why ranges and probabilities are helpful, well we know it likely wont end up 20 feet away, etc, there is a relative maximum possible distance. But that hardly helps us, under the condition of what the question is asking.
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Post by ^^ on Apr 2, 2017 1:16:15 GMT
Chaos is only a human reference to human ignorance, 'too complex to predict'.
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Post by josv2 on Apr 2, 2017 4:36:56 GMT
I was just thinking about how Coldplay recently released yet another hit. They've been so big for so long. That's a feat. Any opinions on why they've been so consistent? Resonance and marketing.
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Post by josv2 on Apr 2, 2017 4:52:18 GMT
Chaos is only a human reference to human ignorance, 'too complex to predict'. Capacity to predict isn't the same as 'ignorance'.
Insecticide cosmos on a fine Tuesday afternoon.
Did anyone predict I'd write that? Was It predictable?
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Post by josv2 on Apr 2, 2017 4:54:26 GMT
Jos, "Chaos and memory" is an interesting choice of taglines for your avatar. Since I am keenly interested in memory and quite at the whim of chaos at times it seems (and a bit of a chaos inducer myself), I researched the connection between these two things. I found an interesting study by a student of neural networks named Shuoyang Cui. He produced a presentation entitled "Chaos in Neural Networks" as part of his study of the functioning of the human brain in order to create artificial intelligence that mimics it - using neural network functionality. He states that "Chaos is statistically indistinguishable from randomness, and yet it is deterministic and not random at all " and also "Chaotic systems will produce the same results if given the same inputs. It is unpredictable in the sense that you cannot predict in what way the system's behavior will change for any change in the input to that system. A random system will produce different results when given the same inputs." He also states that: "Chaos is random-appearing, and yet has a large degree of underlying order. " And most interesting to me: "For the brain of a human: researchers believe chaotic background behavior is necessary for the brain to engage in continual learning." Of course I do not know how good of a student he was lol, but this information is interesting. As a student of spirituality, I understand that chaos is necessary for growth and development of one's being as one overcomes the challenges of chaos and learns from them - aka continually bringing order to continually created chaos. Given all of this, how do you feel that chaos relates to memory in particular? I am curious. Thanks Jos :-) Very impressive. I'll bet you know the answer.
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Post by josv2 on Apr 2, 2017 4:57:32 GMT
Are you people serious? This guy is so full of hot air. What a load of horseshit. Every wolf suffers fleas.
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Post by ^ on Apr 2, 2017 14:00:34 GMT
Chaos is only a human reference to human ignorance, 'too complex to predict'. Capacity to predict isn't the same as 'ignorance'.
Insecticide cosmos on a fine Tuesday afternoon.
Did anyone predict I'd write that? Was It predictable?
If the question is; do you know (can you accurately predict) the real-time sensitive flight pattern formation of a swarm of birds (t1 s1, t2 s2, t3 s3, t4 s4, t5 s5, t6 s6 etc.. etc.. t99999 s99999), and you say no, if the majority of scientists said no, they may refer to the function of the flight pattern, as chaotic. I don't know what the illuminati is thinking, I don't think id let you babysit my kids.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 17:43:05 GMT
Jos, "Chaos and memory" is an interesting choice of taglines for your avatar. Since I am keenly interested in memory and quite at the whim of chaos at times it seems (and a bit of a chaos inducer myself), I researched the connection between these two things. I found an interesting study by a student of neural networks named Shuoyang Cui. He produced a presentation entitled "Chaos in Neural Networks" as part of his study of the functioning of the human brain in order to create artificial intelligence that mimics it - using neural network functionality. He states that "Chaos is statistically indistinguishable from randomness, and yet it is deterministic and not random at all " and also "Chaotic systems will produce the same results if given the same inputs. It is unpredictable in the sense that you cannot predict in what way the system's behavior will change for any change in the input to that system. A random system will produce different results when given the same inputs." He also states that: "Chaos is random-appearing, and yet has a large degree of underlying order. " And most interesting to me: "For the brain of a human: researchers believe chaotic background behavior is necessary for the brain to engage in continual learning." Of course I do not know how good of a student he was lol, but this information is interesting. As a student of spirituality, I understand that chaos is necessary for growth and development of one's being as one overcomes the challenges of chaos and learns from them - aka continually bringing order to continually created chaos. Given all of this, how do you feel that chaos relates to memory in particular? I am curious. Thanks Jos :-) It appears chaos means, many quanta and many variables. Imagine you had a very wide/large shower head type thing, that had 10,000 holes where water came out of (then there is the variable of how much pressure/force the water is turned on on, running at)(and the variable of general air resistance, and wind), and you had in two hands 2 large cups (or just 2 cannon like devices) full of sand (variables being the force the arms move at, the angles the arms move at, or the force and angle the cannons fire at, and the mass and shape of each piece of sand and its order of packing). How to predict where each individual sand particle will end up, and each individual water particle will end up (starting counting 10 milliseconds before you move the cups forward to dump, or fire the sand blasters). This is why ranges and probabilities are helpful, well we know it likely wont end up 20 feet away, etc, there is a relative maximum possible distance. But that hardly helps us, under the condition of what the question is asking. Yes, I agree that what may appear chaotic may not be random, and that each potential result could be calculated given enough computing power AND the "memory" input of prior effects of the same cause with different variables introduced. The interplay of chaos and order in its binary way (Chaos = 0 and Order = 1) is also an example of cause and effect. Perhaps chaos is just another form of order - on a higher level that our human mind rearranges to fit human parameters and create what we can understand as order. As for memory, it must be the largest contributor to learning since it houses our experiences - both cause and effect/chaos and order. If one cannot consciously bring order to a chaotic stimulus - such as with childhood abuse or betrayal then perhaps the conscious mind could be directed to disregard that piece of memory as anomalous or not contributing to the learning process, thus it is consciously forgotten (similar to what Jos described). However since it is still part of the mind, perhaps the subconscious aspect retains it until the problem can be resolved. Perhaps the memory is allowed to surface to the conscious mind when/if a more mature version of the conscious mind evolves with the ability to sort out the chaos, bring the order, and thus learn the lesson. Hmm interesting.
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Post by josv2 on Apr 3, 2017 2:40:57 GMT
It appears chaos means, many quanta and many variables. Imagine you had a very wide/large shower head type thing, that had 10,000 holes where water came out of (then there is the variable of how much pressure/force the water is turned on on, running at)(and the variable of general air resistance, and wind), and you had in two hands 2 large cups (or just 2 cannon like devices) full of sand (variables being the force the arms move at, the angles the arms move at, or the force and angle the cannons fire at, and the mass and shape of each piece of sand and its order of packing). How to predict where each individual sand particle will end up, and each individual water particle will end up (starting counting 10 milliseconds before you move the cups forward to dump, or fire the sand blasters). This is why ranges and probabilities are helpful, well we know it likely wont end up 20 feet away, etc, there is a relative maximum possible distance. But that hardly helps us, under the condition of what the question is asking. Yes, I agree that what may appear chaotic may not be random, and that each potential result could be calculated given enough computing power AND the "memory" input of prior effects of the same cause with different variables introduced. The interplay of chaos and order in its binary way (Chaos = 0 and Order = 1) is also an example of cause and effect. Perhaps chaos is just another form of order - on a higher level that our human mind rearranges to fit human parameters and create what we can understand as order. As for memory, it must be the largest contributor to learning since it houses our experiences - both cause and effect/chaos and order. If one cannot consciously bring order to a chaotic stimulus - such as with childhood abuse or betrayal then perhaps the conscious mind could be directed to disregard that piece of memory as anomalous or not contributing to the learning process, thus it is consciously forgotten (similar to what Jos described). However since it is still part of the mind, perhaps the subconscious aspect retains it until the problem can be resolved. Perhaps the memory is allowed to surface to the conscious mind when/if a more mature version of the conscious mind evolves with the ability to sort out the chaos, bring the order, and thus learn the lesson. Hmm interesting. Well said Andrea. The only thing I'd change would be the word 'forgotten'. Memory is never truly lost, only assigned immensely low priority and denied access to the resources the mind uses for quicker recall.
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Post by josv2 on Apr 3, 2017 2:51:54 GMT
Capacity to predict isn't the same as 'ignorance'.
Insecticide cosmos on a fine Tuesday afternoon.
Did anyone predict I'd write that? Was It predictable?
If the question is; do you know (can you accurately predict) the real-time sensitive flight pattern formation of a swarm of birds (t1 s1, t2 s2, t3 s3, t4 s4, t5 s5, t6 s6 etc.. etc.. t99999 s99999), and you say no, if the majority of scientists said no, they may refer to the function of the flight pattern, as chaotic. I don't know what the illuminati is thinking, I don't think id let you babysit my kids.
Mercifully my work doesn't really require that I calculate the flight patterns of swarms of birds. I work with the mind, its predilections and the nature of the human condition. We can while away our time with the metaphysical, philosophical meanderings of whether universally accepted concepts are 'really real', but it does little to advance the discussion. I'm not interested in stroking your ego. As I said on page one, my credentials are unproven and improvable and I've no interest in doing so. Can certain individuals discern my identity? Yes, of course they can. Can the lion's share of those viewing this communication? No.
This thread is about discussing what I do. You either accept that as truth, possible truth, or farce. If the first two, then let's discuss. If the latter, move along. Hours and pages of proving/disproving are fruitless for all save the egomaniac who is obsessed with discrediting that which, won't be unmasked.
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Post by c on Apr 3, 2017 13:04:54 GMT
another example, take some sticks and logs (how many shapes and sizes and types are there, and how many of how subtle ways can they be stacked and aligned, and what are the characteristics of air (at this place and time, and what all determines that, and how possibly can it change over the course of the trial/s, and how many different utensils can be used to light the fire, and how many different places, held at how many angles and how far)) and calculate the time, place, shape of each quanta of flame over the course of a minute.
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Post by I on Apr 3, 2017 13:07:59 GMT
thought a poster was musing/wondering/asking about the nature of 'chaos', what it might be, mean, so I mused, wondered, asked back attempting to elucidate what the term might be related to, used for.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2017 16:43:53 GMT
thought a poster was musing/wondering/asking about the nature of 'chaos', what it might be, mean, so I mused, wondered, asked back attempting to elucidate what the term might be related to, used for. Well, it is I who brought up the subject, but I was referring to chaos as related to mind and memory. An understanding of chaos is helpful, but since this thread was begun by Jos to discuss his work in mind control and its mechanisms, perhaps we can keep the discussion bounded such that the topic of mind/mind control remains the focus. Otherwise it could go off in all sorts of directions and would be more appropriate for the other main area of the forum.
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Post by Caylus Ark on Apr 4, 2017 4:40:13 GMT
I'm going to have to back up andrea here glyph, please do not derail this thread, it's one I care about a lot. If you do continue derailing it I'm going to have to start moderating. Thanks man.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2017 20:18:03 GMT
Yes, I agree that what may appear chaotic may not be random, and that each potential result could be calculated given enough computing power AND the "memory" input of prior effects of the same cause with different variables introduced. The interplay of chaos and order in its binary way (Chaos = 0 and Order = 1) is also an example of cause and effect. Perhaps chaos is just another form of order - on a higher level that our human mind rearranges to fit human parameters and create what we can understand as order. As for memory, it must be the largest contributor to learning since it houses our experiences - both cause and effect/chaos and order. If one cannot consciously bring order to a chaotic stimulus - such as with childhood abuse or betrayal then perhaps the conscious mind could be directed to disregard that piece of memory as anomalous or not contributing to the learning process, thus it is consciously forgotten (similar to what Jos described). However since it is still part of the mind, perhaps the subconscious aspect retains it until the problem can be resolved. Perhaps the memory is allowed to surface to the conscious mind when/if a more mature version of the conscious mind evolves with the ability to sort out the chaos, bring the order, and thus learn the lesson. Hmm interesting. Well said Andrea. The only thing I'd change would be the word 'forgotten'. Memory is never truly lost, only assigned immensely low priority and denied access to the resources the mind uses for quicker recall. Thank you, Jos. I have a question. When one's memory of trauma is relegated to the "low priority" sector of the mind, might it still contribute to learning and have an impact on conscious behavior? What is the difference between this low priority sector and the subconscious mind? Are they the same thing? Is there but one mind with hierarchical layers of learning and memory? Might any level affect behavior if the behavior triggers that layer of knowledge, whether it is usually consciously accessible or not?
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Post by josv2 on Apr 18, 2017 2:12:15 GMT
Well said Andrea. The only thing I'd change would be the word 'forgotten'. Memory is never truly lost, only assigned immensely low priority and denied access to the resources the mind uses for quicker recall. Thank you, Jos. I have a question. When one's memory of trauma is relegated to the "low priority" sector of the mind, might it still contribute to learning and have an impact on conscious behavior? What is the difference between this low priority sector and the subconscious mind? Are they the same thing? Is there but one mind with hierarchical layers of learning and memory? Might any level affect behavior if the behavior triggers that layer of knowledge, whether it is usually consciously accessible or not? We're delving into the realm of theory here. Altered States do exist and for the sake of simplicity, we could call this 'manner of being' the sub-conscious accessed, though equally fitting: the sub-priority information layer. We've spoken about the 'core', a human bios of sorts that utilizes all information equally to determine nature and demeanor, to establish stored reaction based on experiences or more simply, 'learning'.
The 'core' establishes an Action and Reaction Routine born of the consequences of experiences. You don't ever really think about these routines, but you can 'feel' them if you think about them. Here's an exceptionally over-simplified example:
Subject A sat on a tack. Subject A's 'core' determines that the consequence demands a priority 'rule' to avoid it in the future. In order to overcome this 'rule', one must be forced to re-encounter the tack, but with either a reward consequence that outweighs the negative association, or a punishment consequence that does so. But what if the consequence is more than the pinch of sitting on a tack? Then the Subject must have their critical thinking interrupted or anesthetized. Even when this is successfully performed, there are no guarantees that you may push the Subject to repeatedly overcome a 'core rule', especially the more threatening ones. I digress.
the low priority sector of memory isn't low priority to the (possibly fictitious?) 'core' of the mind and that data will be utilized to form nature and shape demeanor of any subject.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 19:25:49 GMT
Ah very enlightening. Thank you, Jos. :-)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 20:52:43 GMT
Thank you, Jos. I have a question. When one's memory of trauma is relegated to the "low priority" sector of the mind, might it still contribute to learning and have an impact on conscious behavior? What is the difference between this low priority sector and the subconscious mind? Are they the same thing? Is there but one mind with hierarchical layers of learning and memory? Might any level affect behavior if the behavior triggers that layer of knowledge, whether it is usually consciously accessible or not? We're delving into the realm of theory here. Altered States do exist and for the sake of simplicity, we could call this 'manner of being' the sub-conscious accessed, though equally fitting: the sub-priority information layer. We've spoken about the 'core', a human bios of sorts that utilizes all information equally to determine nature and demeanor, to establish stored reaction based on experiences or more simply, 'learning'.
The 'core' establishes an Action and Reaction Routine born of the consequences of experiences. You don't ever really think about these routines, but you can 'feel' them if you think about them. Here's an exceptionally over-simplified example:
Subject A sat on a tack. Subject A's 'core' determines that the consequence demands a priority 'rule' to avoid it in the future. In order to overcome this 'rule', one must be forced to re-encounter the tack, but with either a reward consequence that outweighs the negative association, or a punishment consequence that does so. But what if the consequence is more than the pinch of sitting on a tack? Then the Subject must have their critical thinking interrupted or anesthetized. Even when this is successfully performed, there are no guarantees that you may push the Subject to repeatedly overcome a 'core rule', especially the more threatening ones. I digress.
the low priority sector of memory isn't low priority to the (possibly fictitious?) 'core' of the mind and that data will be utilized to form nature and shape demeanor of any subject.
Jos, is there any method for recovering these low priority memories that affect behavior so that one may focus on them consciously and potentially change the reaction that has been learned? I know you do not agree with hypnotism, but do you know of any other methods?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 3:33:15 GMT
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