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Post by onion on Aug 20, 2016 18:23:19 GMT
Not trying to start conflict over the issue, but it does hit close to home in more ways than one for me. I'm at a computer so I can finally type normally. I'll message.
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Post by Therin on Aug 20, 2016 19:00:19 GMT
I once tried to commit suicide. It was an earnest attempt on my part. But I don't think it is necessary to jump off a cliff to prove a point.
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Post by Caylus Ark on Aug 20, 2016 19:01:16 GMT
I once tried to commit suicide. It was an earnest attempt on my part. But I don't think it is necessary to jump off a cliff to prove a point. No it's not necessary lol, hence the philosophical discussion on my part. |
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Post by ben on Aug 21, 2016 1:45:27 GMT
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Post by Montblanc on Aug 25, 2016 0:45:39 GMT
I agree with onion. Any conclusion to how an apple tastes is absolute assumption if not eaten by oneself. But hey, people have a primal urge to have an opinion. xD So that's what they will do, always, form opinions on things they have no knowledge on. Can't blame them for that, of course they don't have any frame of reference, but to admit that and not form an opinion would drive home the fact that we know almost nothing. And that is a depressing state if you believe yourself to be the pinnacle of life. So we circle back to forming opinions. But I repeat myself. And honestly I have opinions on a lot of subjects I have no experience with. But thanks to some other experiences which gave me real knowledge I do indeed know, that most of my opinions, are mere attempts at descriptions. And when I meet humans who do have real knowledge formed through experience, I am the first to give up my own conclusions and learn from those that know what they know.  It's simply a philosophical stance on my part. If you accept philosophical premises at all then you have to surmise there is an objective truth one way or another. I wrestled with the question of suicide and was forced to make philosophical conclusions based on those thoughts. And yes it's a very intense and serious question. But without subjecting individual cases and their emotional environments into the equation, and without the qualifier of some sort of terminal and gravely insufferable physical ailment, I feel suicide is selfish. You are indeed committing a murder, and though you have the right in a sense to decide what to do with yourself, you leave the mess of your body and your passing for the living to deal with. I know it's a touchy thing to talk about, and I might change my mind given a good enough argument, but that's simply the way I feel about it. There's also the question of whether or not to bother making an attempt you do not honestly want to follow through with. That's something I've given ample consideration to as well. I think those who are alive to be questioned about their attempt are not necessarily the same people who were absolutely resolved to make a successful attempt. And yes that's quite sad but its true. If I had never seriously considered attempting suicide myself, I would not have many thoughts about it either way. But I have and I do. Sorry guys but I have to give an opinion, based on a close friend of mine's situation. It wasn't really a suicide as I don't think he was trying to kill himself, but the recklessness and lack of fear by him seem to have lead to an inevitable outcome resulting from obviously bad decisions that a sound mind would not pursue. What happened in the end was that a mother who lost her only child was forced to deal with all the bureaucracy associated with a person's death, at what was likely the worst moment in her whole life. |
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Post by ben on Aug 25, 2016 6:26:22 GMT
Another thought that popped into my mind. If you believe death to be the final act of conciousness, death becomes a bad thing. If you believe death to be a step in a progressive path, death becomes a good thing for the dead person. Anyone else in this case is selfish as they want to bind the dead to their point of existance.  |
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Post by Caylus Ark on Aug 26, 2016 23:04:05 GMT
Another thought that popped into my mind. If you believe death to be the final act of conciousness, death becomes a bad thing. If you believe death to be a step in a progressive path, death becomes a good thing for the dead person. Anyone else in this case is selfish as they want to bind the dead to their point of existance. I don't necessarily see death as a bad thing or fear it, though I certainly used to. I think many see suicide as the 'out', but I get the feeling there is no real 'out', and that part of existing means overcoming the barriers between us and serenity. That means, I believe, if you commit suicide, in another time and place of consciousness, you will again be confronted with the same type of obstacles that you will have to somehow overcome. I don't believe consciousness can escape through death, it can only grow and evolve through life, and that's why we incarnate, so that we can learn the lessons needed to progress. I think suicide is not so much an answer as it is a non-answer. There are of course exceptions - I think choosing death in cases where it saves the lives of others or when life means nothing but terminal illness and suffering are different circumstances.... But if its living that ails thee, I think that's something we must confront consciously, and overcome, precisely because it is so painful. |
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Post by Therin on Aug 26, 2016 23:08:51 GMT
Death is your wisest adviser. The constant threat of death can be harnessed to achieve wonders. The right mindset can turn endless folly into controlled folly.
Clinging to expectations is what holds most of you back. Treat every act as your last battle..a battle where the outcome matters very little...and maybe you will see the world in a different way.
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Post by Caylus Ark on Aug 26, 2016 23:18:10 GMT
Death is your wisest adviser. The constant threat of death can be harnessed to achieve wonders. The right mindset can turn endless folly into controlled folly. Clinging to expectations is what holds most of you back. Treat every act as your last battle..a battle where the outcome matters very little...and maybe you will see the world in a different way. This is a particular kind of strategy...I have heard it referred to as "burn all your ships to the ground". This is what Hernando Cortez did to prevent a mutiny by his sailors when they first arrived in south america. Basically made all his crew understand, we either succeed or we die here, there is no going home. It works, but then again if it doesn't, there are no second chances. The philosophy is that humankind are creatures born of necessity, who otherwise tend to act in accordance with their habits. |
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Post by Therin on Aug 26, 2016 23:23:59 GMT
Death is your wisest adviser. The constant threat of death can be harnessed to achieve wonders. The right mindset can turn endless folly into controlled folly. Clinging to expectations is what holds most of you back. Treat every act as your last battle..a battle where the outcome matters very little...and maybe you will see the world in a different way. This is a particular kind of strategy...I have heard it referred to as "burn all your ships to the ground". This is what Hernando Cortez did to prevent a mutiny by his sailors when they first arrived in south america. Basically made all his crew understand, we either succeed or we die here, there is no going home. It works, but then again if it doesn't, there are no second chances. The philosophy is that humankind are creatures born of necessity, who otherwise tend to act in accordance with their habits. I'm not saying expect to die at any moment every moment. I'm saying the best strategy is to understand you own bias. The only way to truly account for your own bias is to develop the ability to act without believing. |
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Post by ben on Aug 26, 2016 23:47:03 GMT
Another thought that popped into my mind. If you believe death to be the final act of conciousness, death becomes a bad thing. If you believe death to be a step in a progressive path, death becomes a good thing for the dead person. Anyone else in this case is selfish as they want to bind the dead to their point of existance. I don't necessarily see death as a bad thing or fear it, though I certainly used to. I think many see suicide as the 'out', but I get the feeling there is no real 'out', and that part of existing means overcoming the barriers between us and serenity. That means, I believe, if you commit suicide, in another time and place of consciousness, you will again be confronted with the same type of obstacles that you will have to somehow overcome. I don't believe consciousness can escape through death, it can only grow and evolve through life, and that's why we incarnate, so that we can learn the lessons needed to progress. I think suicide is not so much an answer as it is a non-answer. There are of course exceptions - I think choosing death in cases where it saves the lives of others or when life means nothing but terminal illness and suffering are different circumstances.... But if its living that ails thee, I think that's something we must confront consciously, and overcome, precisely because it is so painful. Interesting. Let's assume another premise different from yours though. Life is the first step conciousness takes on a long journey through countless dimensions. Since it is the first time conciousness is self-aware, there is no possibility of it knowing of the second step which comes after life. But just for the sake of the argument, let us assume that this hypothesis is true. And it goes further, since it is a journey, the next point of existance for conciousness after life, probably gives you the scope to know everything. Now any and all "lessons" learned through living itself become redundant and you might as well skip them. Living itself is a painfull process, I think we can all agree to that. And even though it has it's merits and moments, if our karmic-view on life is wrong however, then living itself, combined with the above premise, becomes a fruitless effort. But there is no way to know for sure as long as we're alive, all we can do is guess. Out of fear that we could be right or wrong in whatever we believe in, we automatically like to "shackle" the humans and loved ones to this life by denying them the suicide option. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2016 6:30:58 GMT
suicide eh?
Here is suicide in a nutshell for me.
Nick twas his name. Greaaaaat singer....had a talent for Opera, tho he was a metal head at heart., Taught guitar and singing...was in the process of getting his qualifications for full school teacher.
Things went screwy, his gf broke up with him, got depressed, took the cops on a chase in a fuck you moment, was evaluated, and sent home with a bag of pills from our mental health care professionals.
Anywho....gave his brother a call one night
Not feeling well...
His bro said i cant make it tonight, can we catch up tomorrow?
Another mate was working, would be free in a few hours..
to long in the dark place, i guess, when they went over,
his bro was the one who found him hanging.
Remember his dad losin his shit at his brothers wedding
Remember carrying the coffin.
I could go on,
instead leave this celebration of self destruction, surrender and defeat
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Post by Caylus Ark on Aug 27, 2016 23:35:15 GMT
suicide eh? Here is suicide in a nutshell for me. Nick twas his name. Greaaaaat singer....had a talent for Opera, tho he was a metal head at heart., Taught guitar and singing...was in the process of getting his qualifications for full school teacher. Things went screwy, his gf broke up with him, got depressed, took the cops on a chase in a fuck you moment, was evaluated, and sent home with a bag of pills from our mental health care professionals. Anywho....gave his brother a call one night Not feeling well... His bro said i cant make it tonight, can we catch up tomorrow? Another mate was working, would be free in a few hours.. to long in the dark place, i guess, when they went over, his bro was the one who found him hanging. Remember his dad losin his shit at his brothers wedding Remember carrying the coffin. I could go on, instead leave this celebration of self destruction, surrender and defeat One of the many multivarious ways the mental health system is an utter failure. Pill cures to serious shit seen as a quick fix when a person needs true behavioral therapy regardless of cost or more then three days to be treated. It enrages me. |
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Post by Amadeus on Aug 29, 2016 10:49:05 GMT
Being ready to die and actually killing yourself. There is a very large gap between those two. Although the time it takes for this knowledge <- not assumption, to manifest itself in form of experience is nothing short than the eternity of a moment. Some of you might know too. Quantum Suicide is quite real. ^__^ I don't think it's quite the same thing. I mean, I feel that we have lives for a reason. And we are all going to die anyway as it is. There is no need to hurry it along. I think we ought to learn as much as we can while we still can. Also, there is a huge karmic impact from killing oneself. You traumatize those who love you in such an unspeakably horrific way, that they are scarred for life. So even if you don't care about your life, you are leaving a giant mess for somebody else to organize and clean up. I can commiserate completely with people who are suicidal - I have been at those low points myself - but ultimately I think it's true that it is - selfish. That it's cowardice is arguable, but I don't think it's arguable that it's very selfish. when asked "have you ever considered suicide" "" murder first" is the reply |
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Post by River on Aug 30, 2016 19:07:43 GMT
Suicidal thoughts is the souls way of saying things must change or it will die. The soul itself will expire. When the body is killed, the soul gains its reprieve. If people realized that you just have to change, then you can begin to think of the options that will change the circumstances. There is always an option.
I suicided out of one life that I remember, from thousands of years ago. I remember clips of it. I didn't do it to save my soul. I did it to spite a very bad someone. That's a messed up thing, but the circumstances at that time were severe. If I look back at it now, I wonder, honestly, if I would do it differently if I were in the same situation but in this life because I've aged spiritually. Maybe I would do it differently. I never thought about it until now, but maybe I should. hmm.
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Post by River on Aug 30, 2016 19:14:08 GMT
Suicidal thoughts is the souls way of saying things must change or it will die. The soul itself will expire. When the body is killed, the soul gains its reprieve. If people realized that you just have to change, then you can begin to think of the options that will change the circumstances. There is always an option. I suicided out of one life that I remember, from thousands of years ago. I remember clips of it. I didn't do it to save my soul. I did it to spite a very bad someone. That's a messed up thing, but the circumstances at that time were severe. If I look back at it now, I wonder, honestly, if I would do it differently if I were in the same situation but in this life because I've aged spiritually. Maybe I would do it differently. I never thought about it until now, but maybe I should. hmm. Or maybe not doing it then would have killed my spirit. Still going to ponder this. |
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Post by Caylus Ark on Aug 30, 2016 19:25:26 GMT
Suicidal thoughts is the souls way of saying things must change or it will die. The soul itself will expire. When the body is killed, the soul gains its reprieve. If people realized that you just have to change, then you can begin to think of the options that will change the circumstances. There is always an option. I suicided out of one life that I remember, from thousands of years ago. I remember clips of it. I didn't do it to save my soul. I did it to spite a very bad someone. That's a messed up thing, but the circumstances at that time were severe. If I look back at it now, I wonder, honestly, if I would do it differently if I were in the same situation but in this life because I've aged spiritually. Maybe I would do it differently. I never thought about it until now, but maybe I should. hmm. It is one of those things I believe that is highly sensitive to circumstances. We also live in a very different time then our ancestors, one which is in many ways less cruel to the physical body, and in which there are a lot of opportunities to "tough it out". The time our ancestors lived in was quite punishing and I could only imagine that there were quite a few circumstances in which suicide would have been the least cruel among options. |
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Post by onion on Aug 30, 2016 20:44:02 GMT
Suicidal thoughts is the souls way of saying things must change or it will die. The soul itself will expire. When the body is killed, the soul gains its reprieve. If people realized that you just have to change, then you can begin to think of the options that will change the circumstances. There is always an option. I suicided out of one life that I remember, from thousands of years ago. I remember clips of it. I didn't do it to save my soul. I did it to spite a very bad someone. That's a messed up thing, but the circumstances at that time were severe. If I look back at it now, I wonder, honestly, if I would do it differently if I were in the same situation but in this life because I've aged spiritually. Maybe I would do it differently. I never thought about it until now, but maybe I should. hmm. Or maybe not doing it then would have killed my spirit. Still going to ponder this. A similar, if not same, angle I've looked at too |
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Post by River on Aug 31, 2016 13:17:11 GMT
I just feel that looking at the situation for what it is...a warning, per se...allows one to realize the need to make changes. In a way, it's the silver lining. It's your souls way of letting you know that things just aren't going to work. Stagnation is deadly. We must remain fluid.
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Post by Caylus Ark on Sept 1, 2016 3:11:51 GMT
I just feel that looking at the situation for what it is...a warning, per se...allows one to realize the need to make changes. In a way, it's the silver lining. It's your souls way of letting you know that things just aren't going to work. Stagnation is deadly. We must remain fluid. Hmm, yes. And sometimes even through pain. |
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